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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2007, 08:07 PM
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Hi

I now officially post as OILFXPRO as that is the name on other message boards

but here is the clue to better's EA

News - Automated Trading Championship 2007

Olexandr Topchylo (Better) is an experienced trader. He is Cand. Sc. (Physics and Mathematics), and this helps him develop trading systems. He performed unsuccessfully in the last-year Championship, but that failure was the making of him. Olexandr learned his lesson and became the leader of Championship 2007 with a huge equity!



Hello, Olexandr. Could you tell us a little about yourself? When and how did you start trading?
I'm 41 and Cand. Sc. (Physics and Mathematics), so I had all necessary foundations for trading. I've been trading forex for one and a half years. However, I have traded binary options on currency for three years. Methods forecasting currency exchange rate changes are absolutely the same for both spheres of trading, so I did not have to retrain myself.

When and for what reason did you become interested in automated trading? What are your achievements in this field?
I wanted to automate trading even when I was trading options. I opened 15-20 positions daily, and I had to do it all manually. However, that trading platform did not allow automated trading, unfortunately. When went to forex, I decided immediately that I would only trade on a platform that enables automated trading. So MetaTrader met my needs ideally.

In summer 2006, I saw an advertisement for Automated Trading Championship 2006 and decided to learn MQL4 and try to participate in it. Fortunately, I code well in С++, so I wrote the first Expert Advisor in MQL4 within a week. Using that EA, I won a traders' contest conducted on demo accounts in one of Brokerage Companies.

I wrote the second EA especially for ATC'2006. However, my experience was insufficient as related to what the difference is between testing and real conditions. This is why my EA contained some errors and took only the 113th place.

Talking of Championship 2006, your Expert Advisor traded three currency pairs that time - EURUSD, GBPUSD and USDJPY. The trading was profitable for only one of them, while two other pairs were weighting your deposit down. This time, your EA trade only one pair, EURUSD. Have you concluded that it is better to trade only one pair?
I have an absolutely different system this year. It has nothing in common with the last-year one. It works on EURUSD best of all.

You EA made over 900 trades during Championship 2006. Your present EA has closed 144 positions within the first month of the contest. So we can say that your new strategy trades very actively, too. Or has your approach changed all the same?
Yes, it has. The last-year system can be called scalping. However, I have revised my position towards this trading technique since that Championship. My present system is based on absolutely different principles. The real number of my trades at the present Championship can be with every reason divided by three, since I'm using three strongly correlated subsystems. Thus, it makes approximately two trades per day. Not too much.

Summarizing your participation in ATC'2006, could you tell us what it has taught you? What conclusions have you made and what exactly has influenced them?
First of all, it taught me that the results of scalping EAs may be as different as day and night in Tester, on a demo account or in real trading, as well as they are different for different brokers. So such strategies are unfit for a long-term and stable trading forex.

You wrote on your Participant's page that you were using neural networks in your EA. How complicated is such an EA? What is more difficult to create - an optimal neural network or the Expert Advisor's algorithm?
A neural network that forecasts the changes in exchange rates and a trading algorithm are inseparable, they belong each other. Indeed, the Expert Advisor is very complicated. This trading system was first developed in С++, tested and optimized. Only after that, it was re-written in MQL4 and debugged.

Olexandr, why did you write the program in С++ and then re-write in MQL4?
MQL4 will, for objective reasons, will never be able to compete with C++ in performance, whereas the program operating speed is a very important factor for neural networks. However, there is a more important thing - debugging means available in С++. This accelerates coding of complicated programs.

What do you input in a neural network: indicator readings or a certain set of prices on a certain interval/timeframe?
Readings of indicators developed especially for this trading system. I won't give more details now. The only thing I can say is that they combine some moving averages.

You informed above that your EA consisted of three subsystems. Is it an implementation of the so-called "committee of neural networks"?
No, it is not a "committee". These are three independent subsystems. No one of them "sees" what other subsystems are doing. Committee of neural networks can be a possible development of my EA in future.

After having optimized my trading system's Strategy Tester, I obtained a parameter space where the system produced good results. And, in order not to put all my eggs in one basket, I took from this space three sets of parameters to be optimized. I allocated 1/3 of the deposit for each subsystem at the very beginning. So each subsystem defines the volume of trades according to "its" balance.
Although the subsystems correlate strongly, I managed to achieve some diversification. Well, in a case one of the subsystems starts to lose its deposit for some reasons, two others can get the account out of losses.

Your EA opens positions with preset levels of Stop Loss and Take Profit, but the most of them are closed "by market". What is the reason for this: Does the position holding time run out or do the conditions of position opening "spoil"?
No, it has no relation to the time at all. Positions are closed when the probability of opposite trend increases.

Do you find this probability using moving averages?
Yes, I do. A certain set of moving averages is processed by a neural network. Then the neural network gives a forecast.

The position holding time average of your EA made a little more than 8 hours in October. Multiplying 144 orders by 8 hours and dividing the result by 24 hours (the duration of a day), we can see that your Expert Advisor had been "in the market" for 48 days in October. However, there were only 23 trade days in October. So it is no wonder that your EA was "in the market" practically all the time. Was it your purpose or is it a random side effect of optimization?
Well, it would be just too boring for me to observe my EA that is out of the market most of the time. It's a joke, of course. However, it was not my purpose, it happed so.

Do you visit other Participants' reports? Do statistical data on Participants' pages help you in any way?
Of course, I visit them and look through with much interest. The reports are very informative. The first thing I look at is the balance curve. It can provide you with 80% of information you need. Then I read the data - maximal drawdown, Profit Factor, etc.

In the Participants table, I would add the total volume, direction and currency of the current trades for each Participant to make it more illustrative.

Olexandr, who of your competitors could pretend to take Top Three places, in your opinion?
Locations of the most Participants change so rapidly in the table that I find difficulty in naming real candidates.

Let's imagine that you have won. How would you dispose your prize money, if it is not a secret?
There is no secret at all: I never estimate expenditures before I gain income.

Thank you very much for your interview, Olexandr. We wish you much success in automated trading.

Created: 2007.11.20 Author: MetaQuotes Software Corp.
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Congratulations for the perfomance and for the
excellent idea in the construction of the
expert.

Hugs,
Fernando Botti

OILFXPRO
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2007, 08:42 PM
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Hi

I have always known that most of the traders on this forum are amateurs ,including those who call themselves professionals

Here is the professional making 1,000 pips a month on Euro/usd

News - Automated Trading Championship 2007

Participant Better - Automated Trading Championship 2007

Most of the so called professionals are amateurs who hang around forums ,cause they can't make a living from trading forex

OILFXPRO
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2007, 08:44 PM
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gbolla is on a distinguished road
same ideas of writing EA like Better's EA?
how is it possible write a complex neural nets in mql language? And about a backpropagation error algorithm ? or he training the net on C++ and then re-write in mql with only the weights?? how many hidden layer?

bolla
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2007, 02:41 AM
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Lightbulb EA that think like Chessmaster

I think it's good to have EA that think like chessmaster or deepfritz...
if you ever played chess with computer now you will get this idea on how the EA will work, but I don't know where to start...
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2007, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 101dodol View Post
I think it's good to have EA that think like chessmaster or deepfritz...
if you ever played chess with computer now you will get this idea on how the EA will work, but I don't know where to start...
I'm not sure that the way Chessmaster and Deepfritz work can be applied to the financial markets. Those programs essentially compute as many iterations of potential moves coming up and then decide their move based on the perceived best defense/offense in comparison to the other player's position. That doesn't exactly apply to the markets. In a broader sense, the market's next "move" is either up, down, or sideways. There isn't many reactionary "choices." There are varying degrees of each "move," however (example long trend up, short trend down, kind of sideways, etc.).

As a programmer, I can see how to create a "good" chess playing program by simply brute-forcing potential moves. As a programmer, I cannot see how to create a "good" trading program by trying to brute-force potential market movements. You need to also realize that chess plays in a very limited parameter set (the board only has 64 squares, knights can only move this way, you can't deliberately put your king in check, etc.). The market has no such rules. Theoretically, it has no boundaries, and it can just as easily switch directions on itself as it can continue in the same direction.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2007, 06:14 AM
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OILFXPRO,

From the interview you pasted post # 21, I doubt why the interviewer do not ask Olexandr Topchylo (Better) ....

Q1. Do you have an intension to sell your ea...if yes what was the price???

Q2. If there were so many people using your system do you think your NN forecasting will be affected i mean can it be the higher the numbers of people using your system the poorer the performance is?

Last edited by ruparaw; 12-03-2007 at 06:18 AM.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2007, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruparaw View Post
OILFXPRO,

From the interview you pasted post # 21, I doubt why the interviewer do not ask Olexandr Topchylo (Better) ....

Q1. Do you have an intension to sell your ea...if yes what was the price??? .....
I think he has already answered this question - he makes it clear in the opening comment of the 'Commentary' page on the Championships site that he is not prepared to either discuss the algorithm used or sell the EA.

Most impressive EA of the championship so far, with a nice distribution of Buys and Sells - compare this to the 'joke' Steinitz EA, all Buys, with a seriously skewed SL/TP ratio, and almost half the account blown...
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2007, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by omelette View Post
I think he has already answered this question - he makes it clear in the opening comment of the 'Commentary' page on the Championships site that he is not prepared to either discuss the algorithm used or sell the EA.

Most impressive EA of the championship so far, with a nice distribution of Buys and Sells - compare this to the 'joke' Steinitz EA, all Buys, with a seriously skewed SL/TP ratio, and almost half the account blown...
If somebody actually had a better EA on ANY forum ,he would be asked for his source codes and it would end up as a commercial EA and later be sold by some thieves.The DEVELOPER would never be able to earn from selling his EA ,so why should he post it on any forum?

OILFXPRO
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2007, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el cid View Post
Hi

What is NN ?

Where are the NN threads in this forum?

Can anyone here make this EA

El cid
I have been lurking this forum for some time now and thought I might post because this is something that I know about.

The problem with neural networks is not programming the network (that's really the simple part), the actual work is to do the training correctly. And if you haven't studied this field very throughly, it's not going to be an easy task.

There is an excellent story about neural network training that gives you very good sense of what kind of problems you might run to because you will never know what the network has been tuned to (this is a very simple example)

Neil Fraser: Writing: Neural Network Follies

So if you really plan to create a NN trading system, be sure to study the field a LOT before starting to use real money because neural networks are far from simple.

I would guess that better uses a combination of neural networks to define a bigger trend, smaller trend and a correct position to enter the trade but I might be totally wrong.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2007, 04:01 PM
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OILFXPRO I am new non pro trader and can earnanything from 300 - 500-800pips a month

From what NN coders say I agree with you mikkom. If you do eventually code one or have one made for you you need to decide on how it calculates its probable predictions on what learning method. Historic prices. I think if there can be rules when not to trigger a buy sell signal as well is just as important. But using it as a standalone software as a confirmation for your manual trading before you make it an automated system seems sensible. I know of some software that uses NN that is capable of calculating tens of thousands of solutions per second - this is how it self learns to predict future moves.
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