By the way, I am deleting some forgoten theads now. For example the threads where one member is asking: "did you see this system". The other member replied: "no I did not see", or "i've seen soon".

N D

I propose all commercial sellers pay $36 per month in advertising fees or equivalent 3 lots of monthly access to Elite section.That is fair .We stop attacking them if they moderate their claims and also pay 3 lots of subscription to elite section.

Alternatively they can have free use of commercial section ,if they give 5 EAS and or indicators to the Elite section.That is also fair.If these commercial people have already given this token of appreciation ,then we ask for no more .

Please let us have your comments

Regards

El cID

__________________
developer of professional quality expert advisors for fully automated trading

If the commercial section get closed....I will not get mad...

You want to sell something ? go to ebay or do it on your web...but unfortunately, commercial sellers are so insistent the they will spam all others sections of the forum if they are not allowed to post their products.

I agree with the idea of NewDigital. It's correct to delete all the post attacking commercial sellers if they are not their customers, but if a customer complaint something, at least the seller should fix the situation or refund the money, if the seller don't fix the issue with his customer, the seller should be banned.

In ebay there is a seller of a well know EA, the seller have a excellent long term feedback, I wondered many times how he got that feedback, something good should be in his EA, finally time ago, I bought his EA for something nearly a $ thousand, mainly because of too many customers good feedback, after extensive backtest even with tick data and little forward test I learned that his EA is junk and don't have any possibility of become profitable.
I complained, the answer to my previous question was that the seller offered a FULL REFUND to any customer who complaint, but only if the customer agree to left a good feedback to him.
Although his EA is Junk, I can't say that the seller is dishonest, he refunded my money without questions.
If sellers do something like that, at least the customers will not get too angry and sellers will show some type of decency refunding the money of disgusted customers.

__________________
I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.
Thomas Alva Edison

In fact, let's combine both of these bad ideas and see what we end up with.

1. First of all, an experienced trader (observer) would be prohibited from pointing out that the latest "Martingale, No Stop/Loss, Random Entry Method" was a bad idea - despite 3 or 4 weeks worth of "results" that said it was great.

Since the best critics are silenced - the scam goes forth without challenge.

2. People buy this disaster of an EA based upon the glowing testimonials they read. Then they find out it's garbage. In order to get their money back, THEY must post a glowing testimonial of their own. And the cycle is perpetuated.

Do you realize what those ideas add up to? In two simple words...

CRIMINAL CONSPIRACY.

The scammer, the ripped off trader and the forum's own rules all conspiring together to help the scammer earn money, protect their earnings and increase their earnings in the future.

That's a CRIMINAL CONSPIRACY. No ifs, ands or buts about it.

It's a CRIMINAL CONSPIRACY. And that is serious business, and not just for the scammer, I might add. The liability would also be shared by those posting fraudulent testimonials and the forum that set up such a blatant criminal protection system.

So I'd suggest that the solutions lie in exactly the opposite direction. The Commerical Section needs more TRUTH, more SUNLIGHT, more FACTS, more INFORMED OPINION.

Curtailing freedom of speech and bribing people to post phony testimonials will actually make a bad situation much worse.

P.S.

Project 1972, I have no reason to doubt your word about the $1000 EA. But I'm a little surprised that you didn't take this up with the eBay authorities. If you had the slightest shred of evidence to prove this - eBay would have fulfilled their obligation to not only help get your money back to you, but also take appropriate action against the seller.

And let me help you with your conclusion that "I can't say the seller is dishonest..."

Of course you can! Just because they bribed you to lie about their product doesn't get them off the hook. All that did was get you on the hook with them.

It kinda goes back to that CRIMINAL CONSPIRACY thing I was talking about earlier.

Brent Mack, when you are down x amount of money, you accept an "acceptable" condition in order to get you money back instead of spend weeks or months fighting, what other thing you can do, did you think that ebay or paypal will help you when the seller have 5 times more positive feedback than you ? and apparently not complaint form others buyers ?

It's more productive to end the case as best as possible and spend the time and money on another productive activity

If you made a wrong trade I hope you don't argue with the market, you will try to exit as better as you can, correct ?

In this particular case I left only a "Correct Transaction" feedback to the seller without mention the product quality in order to get my money back.

I know that isn't correct, I know what's is correct, or I think that I know, but I don't have the power to change the world, and if I would have, probably my solution will not be the most correct and I would be a dictator.

Thankfully, today ebay customers can rate Seller in an anonymous way, with the stars, this will help to give a better rating to the scammers, without receive their retaliatory feedback or actions.

Of course, I didn't bought anything about trading from ebay from over a year ago. Today is only full of junk.

In the TSD case I don't know what it would do, If I were the forum manager probably I would close the entire commercial section, only to get rid of the pain of manage it. but I left to ND and the forum owner to take any decision they think is correct, as a forum user I will support and agree to any decision they take.

Today I watch silently and I try to not argue with anyone even if they are dishonest. In the end buyers should use common sense before buy something.

__________________
I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.
Thomas Alva Edison

Commercial section will be changed slightly. For example, it was created the subforums as you can see. This process is still going on and did not finish yet. It will be necessary 1 more week and I will inform the members about the changes. Only I can say that every commercial system will be evaluated technically and not emotionally (by members who will want to do it, or by vendors, or clients) and the decision will be taken based on evaluation. So, I am sorry: some systems may be moved to 'Deleted Commercial Threads' and will be closed and deleted phisically after few days/weeks "deleted presentation", most of the systems will be moved to 'Raw Commercial Ideas' section and will wait to be evaluated (to decide where to move: to 'Deleted ...' section or to ''Commercial Trading Systems and indicators' section). Good systems/threads (good based on evaluation) or the threads created by supporters of this forum will be in 'Commercial Trading Systems and indicators' section.

Process of installing all those sections did not finish yet and it will take probable 1 more week. And after that I will explain everything.

that would keep lots of spammer away from TSD, so its a big step forward, good work Newdigital

__________________
“Risk comes from not knowing what you're doing”
“Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience”

Hi

The commercial section steals from the Elite section.A commercial product gets copied from the elite section and gets sold for $99.The commercial thread owner takes the $99 and pockets it and does not contribute to the development of this forum.

The buyer of the commercial system stops using the commercial scam.He wishes to spend $99 with the elite section but his money is already taken by the commercial vendor , so elite section loses $99.

Free developers will not develop free anymore because their ideas are being used by commercial guy for profit, without any benefit for devloper

That really is a problem

El cid

__________________
developer of professional quality expert advisors for fully automated trading

Just something new in commercial section.

We are having 4 commercial sections now:
- Commercial Trading Systems and indicators (original one);
- Raw Commercial Ideas
- Deleted Commercial Threads
- Evaluate Commercial Ideas

1. Commercial threads started by vendors are related to vendors only. Vendors are not paying for the advertisement/space now. But, irrespective of, the commercial threads are related to them in those sections only:
- Commercial Trading Systems and indicators
- Raw Commercial Ideas

If the verdor opened commercial thread in any of those 2 sections so this thread is related to his as a property. Vendor can post anything: if he wants to re-mind the people about the price every day - so he will do it; if he wants to post weekly statements only - he will do it; it he does not want to see some member on his thread - just send PM to me; if he does not want to see some critics on his thread - just PM to me; if the vendor wants to delete some posts - just send PM to me and I will delete.
Originators of the commercial threads (verdors/sellers) in those 2 sections ('Commercial Trading Systems and indicators' and 'Raw Commercial Ideas') can post anything in any way related to their way of selling and so on.

2. Good question: how our forex-tsd community will manage this subject of the verdors will do anything they want?
Very easy.

We are having this section: Evaluate Commercial Ideas
Everybody can create the thread related to some trading system/indicator/EA selling by vendor in his sections: any member, vendow, client, and i can create as well.

For example:
- SirKhan is having this thread: The TrendStuffer System - easy trend prediction for everyone! as his own. If he does not want to see some posts so he can sent PM to me and I will delete. He can promote his system as he wants and he can post the results in the way he wants. On his own thread.
- any member can create the other thread in this section Evaluate Commercial Ideas. For example: Evaluation of TrendStuffer System.
- the goal of evaluation is to evaluate. It is not a goal to discover the scam. Scam will be discovered by itself. What is evaluation? It is some opinions, critics, positive comments, problem with clients, questions, "forward testing results please", "who is author of your indicators you are selling", "how long your system was forward tested before selling started" and so on.
- verdor can participate in evaluation as simple member.
- verdor can start evaluation (if no one wants to start). For example, if no one wants to evaluate so the vendor can open the thread: "Please evaluate my trading system".
- it is responsibility of the vendor to provide all the information for the evaluation in the way he selected.

3. I am moving commercial theads from this section Commercial Trading Systems and indicators to this one Raw Commercial Ideas just to decide about what to do with those commercial threads:
- systems which got good evaluation will be moved back to this section Commercial Trading Systems and indicators.
- systems which were not evaluated for some reasons (vendor did not provide all the information for the evaluation), or systems with bad evaluation will be moved to this section Deleted Commercial Threads and will be deleted after few weeks deleted presentation.

4. Difficulties.
3 sections are moderated by posts so all the things will go a little slowly. But if everything will be fine so 'Evaluate Commercial Ideas' section will not be moderated at all. It is moderated just from the beginning. Just to start.
What is "everything will be fine"? If we get many evaluation threads and many systems will be deleted, or some systems will be improved by authors ... so it means 'fine'.

----------------------------

It looks complicated but it is very easy.
Vendor can post everything he wants on his commercial thread. If you see some his mistake so don't speak with vendor on his thread, don't help him to sell: vendor is making money speaking with you, but you are not. Just open the other evaluation thread and say about vendor's mistake. If the vendor need to speak with you - he will go to your evaluation thread. Because based on evaluation the decision will be taken about to delete vendor's thread or not. Based on your evaluation! And anybody can participate in the evaluation. Evaluation threads are something related to our forex-tsd community and no one can say "why you posted repeatedly bad comments". Because it is our forex-tsd section and we all will evaluate. Besides, if you see that system is good - open evaluation thread and say about it as well.

It will help to discover the scam/spam and some crude/raw commercial proposals. It will help us to delete many threads in commercial section.

This would seam to be the complete opposite of whats actually required !

Vendors with unproven products get complete control over their threads. This will no doubt be abused. In order for the vendor to perpetrate their little scam, you get bombarded with requests from the vendors to protect them, by removing posts.

So the problems remain, and you create even more unpaid work for yourself !

Any attempts at serious evaluation of a product, gets split into a myriad of individual threads. Worse still the disruptive elements who cant post in the vendors thread, are completely free to disrupt the evaluation threads, which then turn into a free for all.

Although I can see how this might provide endless entertainment, I cant really see how any of this encourages collaborative development.

However I wish you luck